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agt_spookyI got a chance to read the script sides for Episode 4 this morning.
Ok, the episode is called In the Beginning and it's the one with teenage John and Mary. Now when I first heard that we were going to have a "time travel" episode I thought for sure that they really meant "flashback".
Boy, was I ever wrong.
I truly cannot BELIEVE that we're doing an actual time traveling episode! This is NOT The X-Files! It's NOT Quantum Leap! This show is NOT science fiction! It's always been billed as a HORROR show! What the hell is Eric thinking??
This is UNBELIEVABLY stupid.
The only thing, and I mean the only thing that could salvage this is that the Trickster is somehow behind this and created this...universe that Sam and Dean find themselves in. That none of it is real and he's screwing with them yet again.
Because really, how are Sam and Dean going to time travel for real?? If someone's got a theory that doesn't involve aliens and/or a time machine, lay them on me, because I really am curious as to how you guys think this is going to happen. Because right now, this is serious Jump the Shark territory for me.
And what's with not calling Sam and Dean by their real names in the script pages any more? I mean, it's more than obvious who's who. This time it's "Rick" and "Jeff".
By the script pages, I'm not sure what the plot of this is going to be, besides John wanting to propose to Mary, but Mary's father being totally against it, and Sam trying to warn Mary to not get out of bed on November 2nd, 1983. I think we all know how that turned out.
Oh, we do find out where Sam got his name from - Samuel is the name of Mary's father. Who is being played by MITCH PILEGGI! Woot! That's about the only thing I'm excited about. :-) Been an XF fan since Day One (hence my agt_spooky nickname) so I can't wait to see Mitch on my favorite show. :-)
Ok, I'm done rambling. I'm interested to hear what you guys think of this!
Ok, the episode is called In the Beginning and it's the one with teenage John and Mary. Now when I first heard that we were going to have a "time travel" episode I thought for sure that they really meant "flashback".
Boy, was I ever wrong.
I truly cannot BELIEVE that we're doing an actual time traveling episode! This is NOT The X-Files! It's NOT Quantum Leap! This show is NOT science fiction! It's always been billed as a HORROR show! What the hell is Eric thinking??
This is UNBELIEVABLY stupid.
The only thing, and I mean the only thing that could salvage this is that the Trickster is somehow behind this and created this...universe that Sam and Dean find themselves in. That none of it is real and he's screwing with them yet again.
Because really, how are Sam and Dean going to time travel for real?? If someone's got a theory that doesn't involve aliens and/or a time machine, lay them on me, because I really am curious as to how you guys think this is going to happen. Because right now, this is serious Jump the Shark territory for me.
And what's with not calling Sam and Dean by their real names in the script pages any more? I mean, it's more than obvious who's who. This time it's "Rick" and "Jeff".
By the script pages, I'm not sure what the plot of this is going to be, besides John wanting to propose to Mary, but Mary's father being totally against it, and Sam trying to warn Mary to not get out of bed on November 2nd, 1983. I think we all know how that turned out.
Oh, we do find out where Sam got his name from - Samuel is the name of Mary's father. Who is being played by MITCH PILEGGI! Woot! That's about the only thing I'm excited about. :-) Been an XF fan since Day One (hence my agt_spooky nickname) so I can't wait to see Mitch on my favorite show. :-)
Ok, I'm done rambling. I'm interested to hear what you guys think of this!
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(no subject)
Date: 2008-07-23 12:39 pm (UTC)Hmmm, about the time-traveling thing. I'm guessing some demon will be able to bend time/space rules or something and take them back.
(no subject)
Date: 2008-07-24 01:36 am (UTC)I'm still squeeing over it!
I'm guessing some demon will be able to bend time/space rules or something and take them back
Ah, a demon, eh? Interesting! I wonder what it's agenda might be, to do that. Hmmm...something to think about!
(no subject)
Date: 2008-07-23 12:40 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2008-07-24 01:38 am (UTC)And yeah, I'm hoping this one plays out on screen better than it does on paper.
(no subject)
Date: 2008-07-23 01:27 pm (UTC)And although I love to read time travel books, they generally make my head hurt...because going back in time and interacting with significant people in your life would HAVE to change your present, but those consequences are rarely shown. I can't imagine this show doing anything but hitting the reset button, no matter what happens.
(And if someone--even someone who looked like Sam Winchester--told me not to do something twenty years in the future? I'd think they were nuts and forget about the date within a month.)
(no subject)
Date: 2008-07-24 01:46 am (UTC)Yeah, and that's my total issue with this. How is he going to keep this in the realm of the "normal" world the boys exist in?
I can't imagine this show doing anything but hitting the reset button, no matter what happens.
But really, what CAN happen? They're not going to change anything that happened in the past, otherwise there'd be no show if they saved mom and none of them became hunters. (Hmm, now that I think about it, this might have been a neat concept for the very last episode of the series - Sam and Dean DO change the past, Mom and Dad live and everyone gets their happy ending) So I'm not really understanding what this episode is supposed to be about, since the script sides really don't give much away.
(And if someone--even someone who looked like Sam Winchester--told me not to do something twenty years in the future? I'd think they were nuts and forget about the date within a month.)
LOL! Oh god, I was thinking the same thing!
(no subject)
Date: 2008-07-23 01:37 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2008-07-23 01:51 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2008-07-23 02:01 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2008-07-23 02:16 pm (UTC)I've been wondering if all their entire family died too, because no one ever seemed to come looking for them after Mary died
Funny you mention their family, as before I found out this was time traveling, I thought it might be a flashback/story told to them from one of their relatives POV - the only person I could think of was the uncle they mentioned at the beginning of Children Shouldn't Play with Dead Things. Other than him, we've never heard of any other family members.
(no subject)
Date: 2008-07-23 04:57 pm (UTC)I've heard of legends about being able to see things going on - like you said, seeing a battle but that's considered a haunting and not that you are actually being transported back in time. Or there are reappearing towns(like Brigadoon:) but again, no one is actually being transported in time, it's just something that is invisible and unreachable becomes visible and reachable for a short period of time.
The way this is shown in the sides isn't anything like a haunting, or even the invisible become visible, it's actual physical time travel to a place in the past and being to interact with and potentially change things.
I googled it and I pretty much found nothing that fits into the already established ethos of Supernatural. The closest was something like astral projection but even that just involved being able to watch, not interact.
To me this too far fetched, it's Sci Fi, it's not horror or folklore based. Let's put it this way, there are stories about people being abducted by actual aliens(as opposed to frat boys just being made to believe that by a pagan demi-god - and that fits too, because it's folklore:) but that wouldn't fit on Supernatural, because it's a sci fi theme and to me it's the same thing with real time travel.
(no subject)
Date: 2008-07-23 05:30 pm (UTC)Also, just to point out - Google knows a lot, but it doesn't know everything. According to it, I do not exist, as nothing comes up when I google my name. ;)
(no subject)
Date: 2008-07-23 07:16 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2008-07-23 05:02 pm (UTC)Okay: so, they get a flux capacitor for the Impala and then drive and get up to 88mph...
If someone's got a theory that doesn't involve aliens and/or a time machine, lay them on me, because I really am curious as to how you guys think this is going to happen.
*scratches Back to the Future scenario*
Well, I'm gonna go with the consensus so far about natural time warps, having experienced one myself (at Hampton Court Palace, 1987 -- I'll tell ya about it sometime, and I've got three witnesses who can vouch for me!). This can include the Brigadoon concept where you have a place from a point in history that appears in the present every so many years, because of folds in the space-time continuum.
The thing to remember that time is not a straight line, and that it's not so much going BACK and FORWARD as just hopping around to different spots in the space-time continuum. A time machine would allow one to actually control one's "hopping," just as getting into a car and driving from point A to point B -- a man-made thing to manipulate the distance and how to cross it -- but time is a naturally occuring beast that is otherwise uncontrolled. Thus, when phenomena like time warps come along and you happen to be in the vicinity...you get caught up in them.
And then there's always the Somewhere in Time theory. No machines other than the mind itself. Just make sure the boys don't have any 2008 pennies in their pockets when they go. ;)
(no subject)
Date: 2008-08-03 01:33 am (UTC)ROTFL! OMG, I think I hurt something I laughed so hard. Freaking hysterical!
Thus, when phenomena like time warps come along and you happen to be in the vicinity...you get caught up in them.
Ok, a natural time warp thing I could buy (and I want to hear YOUR story!) just as long as there are no aliens involved. :-)
And then there's always the Somewhere in Time theory. No machines other than the mind itself. Just make sure the boys don't have any 2008 pennies in their pockets when they go.
LOL! Again, killing me with the humor! Love it!
Although honestly, I think that might be a cool way to do the episode. :-)
(no subject)
Date: 2008-08-03 05:10 am (UTC)I'll save my tale for next time we get together. Maybe if we do that Highway to Hell (Michigan) trip. ;)
(no subject)
Date: 2008-07-23 05:13 pm (UTC)As far as anything else... I'm just waiting to see what happens.
(no subject)
Date: 2008-07-24 01:48 am (UTC)As far as anything else... I'm just waiting to see what happens
Yeah, I'm really hoping this translates better to the screen than it does on paper.
(no subject)
Date: 2008-07-23 07:07 pm (UTC)Also, for some reason, I'm not to concerned about the 'other' casting spoiler yet. That at least makes sense. Sam is alone after dean dies... he needs SOMEONE and bobby just won't cut it. (besides for all you slashy winsest people, I can just imagine what you could do with that!)
But I am so stoked that I was right, that Mitch is playing Mary's father. I just KNEW it wasn't going to be John's Dad.
*I need a Bring on Season 4 icon! Anyone have any?*
(no subject)
Date: 2008-07-24 01:52 am (UTC)That's the only way I see this working, if it's not a device of some kind that sends them back. I want Eric to keep this in the realm of urban legends and folklore the show is based on.
Also, for some reason, I'm not to concerned about the 'other' casting spoiler yet.
Surprisingly, I'm not up in arms about it, either. Because like you said, Sam's spent four months alone, lost after losing Dean, I can see him turning to someone for comfort.
I just KNEW it wasn't going to be John's Dad.
Yeah, when I found out about Mitch, then read the sides I thought having him be Mary's father was a much better fit. Can't wait to see him!
(no subject)
Date: 2008-07-23 07:58 pm (UTC)Other than the oft-confused SciFi channel, I don't really know why someone who seemed so committed to keeping true to folklore/horror would choose to go down the very obvious and very different scifi road.
Between Sera and Kripke, they seem hell-bent on ruining a perfectly wonderful concept for a show.
(no subject)
Date: 2008-07-24 01:56 am (UTC)I'm just hoping it translates better to the screen than it has on paper so far.
(no subject)
Date: 2008-07-23 08:36 pm (UTC)That being said, I really want to know why everyone thinks that an episode that hasn't been written (revised, at least, because the sides for ELAC were a worse trainwreck than the actual eppy, remember), cast, shot, or produced could have jumped the shark. We won't know until the actual episode. I guess I don't understnad how people could lack this much trust in Kripke. He hasn't done wrong by us so far (well, not really).
I know, I know. Teh Wank is ineveitible, but still... the only thing this show has ever really done wrong is recurring female casting under 30 and werewolves. I'm gonna do what I did with Jo and Rubella, give the show a fighting chance, and it turns Smallvillian on us, stop watching. But I doubt Sam and Dean's hot cousin from another planet will team up with Kristy to emasculate them... again...
(no subject)
Date: 2008-07-24 02:05 am (UTC)Oh god, that's so damn funny you mention that, because that's a total sore spot with my friend Chris, too!
Sam and DEan (sorry, Jeff and Rick) find him, he does his freaky psychic thing and either sends them into his memory
Hey, that's an interesting concept. Kind of like when the YED took Sam back in time to the night Mary died. I know he couldn't interact with her, but the concept is there. And yeah, I could totally accept that's how this all happens. Not because of some time traveling device that the boys stumble upon.
I guess I don't understnad how people could lack this much trust in Kripke. He hasn't done wrong by us so far (well, not really),
Honestly, until season three came along I was hardly, if ever, vocal about the choices Eric was making about the show. I was happy. I didn't like Jo, but she went away (and then came back awesome and they made her disappear again!) and I truly loved both first and second season.
But then Ruby and Bela came along. And I was dead on in my opinion of them and what they were going to do to the show, well before The Magnificent Seven ever aired. And it drove me away for nearly the entire season. I lost my faith in Eric with the choices he made last year and it really has colored my opinion of him now.
So I guess he needs to win back my trust and I want to be proved wrong, I really do, because I dearly missed my show last year and want to be excited about it again.
But I doubt Sam and Dean's hot cousin from another planet will team up with Kristy to emasculate them... again...
Ha! With Sera in her position of power that just might happen!
(no subject)
Date: 2008-07-24 01:38 am (UTC)I'm wondering how would I take this ep. Since Mitch/Skinner will probably remind me of X-Files.
Personally, what I want to see would be eps on the boys dealing with creatures of another culture...it'll be nice to see how Sam and Dean go about dealing with a kitsune or pontianak.
(no subject)
Date: 2008-07-31 08:17 pm (UTC)I'm wondering how would I take this ep. Since Mitch/Skinner will probably remind me of X-Files.
LOL! Oh man, I was thinking the same thing! I swear I'll be watching for Mulder to pop out from behind a tree. :-)
it'll be nice to see how Sam and Dean go about dealing with a kitsune or pontianak.
Yeah, either of those would be cool! I'm familiar with the kitsune, but didn't know what a pontianak was. I did a little research and, yeah, creepy and something I could definitely see the boys investigating.
(no subject)
Date: 2008-07-24 02:00 am (UTC)But, Sam and Dean meeting Teen Mom and Dad is far more interesting to me. Also I can totally see why they wouldn't want to use their real names and possibly affect future naming decisions positively or negatively. Of they are still named Sam and Dean when they get back to the present is it only because Mom and Dad met a 'Sam' and 'Dean' when they were teens? So doesn't that make a time loop? Or, they could get back to the present and be named Corey and Cody. Or Bo and Luke. Or Marion and John, Jr. NIGHTMARE!
But, this way, Sammy gets to meet Mommy (he's only seen her briefly as an apologetic fire spirit) and they both get to see John as who he would have been had he never become a hunter. I realize Dean may have some memories of him from age four and maybe a little before, but he can't really even say if they have been warped through time by who John became after Mary died.
Plus - serious moral dilemma - maybe if John and Mary don't get together, Mary will live and John will have a nice happy life as a mechanic. Would Dean and Sam give their lives to save their parents? (Obviously they don't, but maybe they discuss it.) And if Sam was never born, then Jess would live. And if John isn't a hunter, then he'd never have the colt, which means there would be no reason for Caleb or Pastor Jim to die. Presumably all of Mary's friends and family would live.
But, just like in WIAWSNB, what about all of the people John, Sam and Dean have saved? Would they die? What if YED ended up with Ava as his chosen, would there be a world-wide Demon war, and would the demons win? Would Sam's frind Zach be in jail for murder? Would his sister Rebecca be dead? Who would save Bobby from the dream potion nut? Most important, who would own the Impala? What if it wasn't John? What if they didn't take care of it? What if they traded it in on a Volvo!
Okay, so time travel, supernatural or science fiction? It is science fiction-y, but many supernatural events have involved someone having contact with the living after they died, you can't say that this is not at all similar to people having contact with the living before they've been born. If the dead can cone back, couldn't the not-yet-born come forth?
There is also a supernatural phenomenon where people in a place in the present, suddenly find themselves surrounded by the people and activities which tok place there in the past. One I remember really well is a building built on the site of a civil war battlefield hospital (it amy have been a hospital as well, I'm not sure). But two ladie who worked there for some reason took the elevator to the basement one night and when the doors opened, there was the civil war operating room. Soldiers crying and screaming, arms being sawed off, blood everywhere, people running around, and they said that one of the people (a doctor I think) looked up and seemed to actually see them and he gestured for them to come over and help. Of course they freaked and probably pushed a hole through the close door button and got the hell out of there! The similarity is that rather than one ghost being in the present, it was as if they were suddenly in the past. They did not travelk through space only through time. There is an idea that past event can have such a spiritual resonance that it continues to occupy a space regardless of time passing.
I haven't read the sides, but maybe something in John's storage locker, especially if it was owned by John, could pull them into John's past. Or owned by Mary and into Mary's past, in which case it may have something to do with how she knew YED.
Maybe since Sam and Dean have both been ressurrected they can tap into the abilities of spirits to transcend time?
Anyway, even if the concept of time travel itself cannot shake it's science fictionyness, I still think it could be an enjoyable episode.
Um, science fictionyness is so totally a term, by the way.
(no subject)
Date: 2008-07-31 08:05 pm (UTC)Freakily enough, I don't hate this.
LOL! That's okay. Just 'cause we're "badfans" doesn't mean we have to dislike everything. :-)
When I heard there was going to be an episode about Teen John and Mary, I thought, 'Oh great, 40 Sam and Deanless minutes
Yeah, I couldn't figure out how they were going to do this. I thought perhaps someone was going to be telling Sam and Dean a story about their parents.
Also I can totally see why they wouldn't want to use their real names and possibly affect future naming decisions positively or negatively.
Oh, no, that's not what I meant about their different names. In the script you know how the dialogue is written:
SAM
Love you, big brother!
DEAN
Love you, too, man!
But in the pages for this it's written:
RICK
Love you, big brother!
JEFF
Love you, too, man!
It's like that throughout the sides and it's totally obvious it's Sam and Dean, so why the aliases when no one's actually speaking to them, calling them Rick and Jeff?
But, this way, Sammy gets to meet Mommy (he's only seen her briefly as an apologetic fire spirit)
That's really going to be pretty emotional for him.
Plus - serious moral dilemma - maybe if John and Mary don't get together, Mary will live and John will have a nice happy life as a mechanic. Would Dean and Sam give their lives to save their parents?
I can totally see them having that conversation.
And if Sam was never born, then Jess would live. And if John isn't a hunter, then he'd never have the colt, which means there would be no reason for Caleb or Pastor Jim to die. Presumably all of Mary's friends and family would live.
Wow, heavy duty stuff when you lay it all out like that! But like you said, it'll be just like WIAWSNB, and I think Dean would make the same choice, to save all those people instead of just one, his mother, as painful as it would be.
Most important, who would own the Impala? What if it wasn't John? What if they didn't take care of it? What if they traded it in on a Volvo!
LOL! Oh, the horror of a Volvo! Anything but that!
Okay, so time travel, supernatural or science fiction? If the dead can cone back, couldn't the not-yet-born come forth?
Oooh, interesting way of putting that! But I still come down on the science fiction side for time travel. But perhaps Kripke will change my mind with this episode, depending on how he does it.
There is also a supernatural phenomenon where people in a place in the present, suddenly find themselves surrounded by the people and activities which tok place there in the past. One I remember really well is a building built on the site of a civil war battlefield hospital
Man, that sounds exactly like the plot of a Torchwood episode last season! Exactly!
I haven't read the sides, but maybe something in John's storage locker, especially if it was owned by John, could pull them into John's past. Or owned by Mary and into Mary's past, in which case it may have something to do with how she knew YED.
Oooh, now if it had something to do with Mary and the YED that would be great.
Anyway, even if the concept of time travel itself cannot shake it's science fictionyness, I still think it could be an enjoyable episode.
Um, science fictionyness is so totally a term, by the way.
Hee! I'll put that in my dictionary. :-) I really do want this episode to come off better than it has on paper, because I'm very interested in John and Mary's story, and don't want it overshadowed by some time traveling machine.
Fingers crossed it doesn't jump the shark!
(no subject)
Date: 2008-07-31 10:48 pm (UTC)Oh, please, no problem at all! We all have lives!
Oh, no, that's not what I meant about their different names. In the script you know how the dialogue is written:
SAM
Love you, big brother!
DEAN
Love you, too, man!
But in the pages for this it's written:
RICK
Love you, big brother!
JEFF
Love you, too, man!
It's like that throughout the sides and it's totally obvious it's Sam and Dean, so why the aliases when no one's actually speaking to them, calling them Rick and Jeff?
OH! I totally misunderstood that! Not that it makes a difference but I think I do know the reason for that. I have seen some scripts and the actual writing is pretty poor, I mean as far as grammar, spacing, spelling, etc. And I would bet that what they did was, wrote the whole scrpit using the names Sam and Dean so as not to confuse themselves, then when it was done just did an overall find and replace Sam and Dean for Rick and Jeff.
Also, I don't know why they used Rick and Jeff, but I would have loved it if instead it was either Josh and Jeff for J2's real brothers, or Jim and Jeff for Jim Beaver and JDM.
LOL! Oh, the horror of a Volvo! Anything but that!
I know!
Oooh, now if it had something to do with Mary and the YED that would be great.
Now that Kripke confirmed at Comic Con that they WILL be getting into that, it had BETTER have something to do with the YED!
Hee! I'll put that in my dictionary. :-)
Put it in the Supernatural dictionary somewhere between Sammo (Sammy + emo) and Single Tear Kill (the feeling of *is dead* you get when Dean sheds a single tear).
I really do want this episode to come off better than it has on paper, because I'm very interested in John and Mary's story, and don't want it overshadowed by some time traveling machine.
If Kripke really includes a Time Traveling Machine, the ass-kicking will be eternal.
Hey, I've only read this in one place, which was most likely wrong, but they worded it like 'Mitch Pileggi joins the cast of Supernatural' (total paraphrase, but something like that). And I started thinking. What would you think of Mitch Pileggi somehow surviving the Mary's Family and Friends massacre (and having been in hiding or something to avoid it, until now when the boys track him down while searching Mary's side of the family) and becoming a recurring Grandpa?
WTF???
Date: 2008-07-31 10:50 pm (UTC)Sometimes I swear LJ is trying to gaslight me!
(no subject)
Date: 2008-08-13 08:04 pm (UTC)Also, I don't know why they used Rick and Jeff, but I would have loved it if instead it was either Josh and Jeff for J2's real brothers, or Jim and Jeff for Jim Beaver and JDM.
Oh, I would've loved either of those choices!
Now that Kripke confirmed at Comic Con that they WILL be getting into that, it had BETTER have something to do with the YED!
Damn straight! Otherwise, what's the point of the episode, you know?
Put it in the Supernatural dictionary somewhere between Sammo (Sammy + emo) and Single Tear Kill (the feeling of *is dead* you get when Dean sheds a single tear).
ROTFL! You kill me!
What would you think of Mitch Pileggi somehow surviving the Mary's Family and Friends massacre (and having been in hiding or something to avoid it, until now when the boys track him down while searching Mary's side of the family) and becoming a recurring Grandpa?
I think it would be freaking AWESOME. The boys have no one. In essence, they're orphans now that they've lost both their parents and that's so damn sad. I'd love it if they found a family member. Especially when it could be played by Mitch! :-)
(no subject)
Date: 2008-07-24 03:10 am (UTC)Then again, some things look terrible on paper and translate to screen brilliantly. I'm hoping this will be one of those things.
(no subject)
Date: 2008-07-31 07:48 pm (UTC)Boo for time travel, which has always been my least favorite fantasy plot device.
Especially because no matter what the people do in the past, it never seems to effect anything when they go back to the present!
Then again, some things look terrible on paper and translate to screen brilliantly. I'm hoping this will be one of those things.
I am, too, because I don't want to hate this episode, since it deals with John and Mary. Fingers crossed it works!
(no subject)
Date: 2008-08-01 03:44 am (UTC)Especially because no matter what the people do in the past, it never seems to effect anything when they go back to the present!
Why is that? I don't understand having time travel when nothing changes.
Yup, I'm definitely keeping my fingers crossed, too. Don't suck, episode, please don't suck!