SPN - In My Time of Dying question

[agt_spooky]

So I was watching In My Time of Dying last night (and no matter how many times I've seen it, I still get teary-eyed at John's final scenes with his sons) and I've got a question that I've been wondering about since the episode first aired.

When Sam is in Dean's room for the first time, the doctor comes in and says that John is awake. Next we see John asking Sam what the doctor said about Dean's condition. Sam and John have their conversation and as Sam gets up to leave, John hands him that piece of paper. John says it's items for protection against The YED, but we then find out it's actually items to summon the YED.

Now here's my question - if John didn't know about Dean's condition prior to Sam telling him, why did he have that list already made up? He didn't know Dean was dying. He wouldn't already know he was going to summon the YED to make a deal for Dean's life.

So...why was that list already made up? Are we supposed to think that the doctor told John about Dean's condition before Sam came in and that John was just pretending he didn't know? Because really, why would John want to summon the YED with one son barely hanging on to life, another really beat up and himself in a hospital bed with a gunshot to his leg and his arm in a sling? None of them were in any condition to have what Sam called a "macho showdown" with the YED.

Am I the only one who wondered about that pre-prepared list? Or am I just missing something and it makes perfect sense to all of you? :-)

Any thoughts? Would love to hear them!

Comments

[kimberleyqaf.livejournal.com]

For what it's worth, here's my take on it :)

John wakes up and asks about his sons. Doc tells him that Sam is ambulatory and in with Dean, who is in a coma. John makes the list based on that news. Then, when Sam comes to see him, he asks how Dean is, but I think it's more of a 'is there any change?' question rather than 'I haven't heard anything about his condition yet' one. Upon hearing that he's still in danger of dying, he decides to use the list.

Pure speculation, of course, and it's been a few weeks since I re-watched that one, so I could be remembering things out of context, but it's, perhaps, one possibility. :)

[andromakhe001.livejournal.com]

Alas, knowing John, Sam was probably absolutely right. He had the list prepared because he was planning to have some big macho showdown. He changed his mind after the fact. I truly believe John would be tunnel-visioned enough to do such a thing.

[kultiras.livejournal.com]

I always felt as though John knew that Dean was dying. Whether it was because A) He talked to the doctor, B) He knew how much the demon had hurt Dean and realized he must have been hurt even more in the crash, or C) He just believed the demon wanted to take apart the family one member at a time, I think he knew.

I don't know if he wanted to believe it and I think that's why he asked Sam, the person who knew Dean and their family the best, for the truth.

[blacklid.livejournal.com]

I like the answers you got so far... one view so utterly Sam-ish while the other is absolutely Dean-ish. I love this fandom. *hugs it*

Most likely as the insurance carrier, the doctor would speak with John about Dean and Sam's conditions and get permission for certain treatments.

When John asked Sam, he already knew how Dean was, he was really gauging how Sam was taking Dean's condition. It cemented in his mind just how much Sam needed Dean - and it was more than he needed his father.

My personal thought when I watch it is that John is being prepared for any possibility or solution. I mean, he even had insurance for Sam still - after how many years and under uncertain circumstances. It showed that John may have been gung-ho, but he wasn't neglectful. I really believe that if John thought a mano-a-mano showdown with YED would save Dean, he would have done that, too. He loved them.

[felonytexas.livejournal.com]

I thought about this too. My conclusion was that JOhn had planned to summon the YED anyway. It had been a decision he made the instant he woke up, and realized just how deep he and his sons were in. The colt in exchange for the bastard leaving his boys alone.

When he gets the news about Sam he changes the plan - whatever he has to do to get Dean back in the game. Because Sam was who that decision was about. He knew Dean would accept death, just as he would accept death in battle. He knew would WANT to go out like that, like a soldier. Just like he would. He also knew with one look at Sam that Sam, who has to be protected because John already knows what's up with Sam, would not want to go out like that, would not be okay with out someone watching over him. Because Sam and John are like magnets in they repell as much as they attract one another, he knew he could not be the one to take care of him. It had to be Dean.

I'm rather fond of the thought that John left not only to protect his boys, but to push them back together. Knowing that Dean who while a wandering soul doesn't seem content to be with out those he knows, would go and Drag Sam back into the game. He suspected Dean would go and take care of Sam as soon as he was out the picture to leave the responsiblity too. I rather suspect even than John KNEW who and what Sam was, and how utterly important it was for Sam to be looked after. Knowing he couldn't go and fetch him himself (after all the bridges burned and by the sheer nature of their relationship), as Sam would never go with him. So he worked it so that Dean would get him, and Sam would never know John sent him. Hell Dean would never know either.

John was a smart man, there's a reason he was able to evade the YED so long, and the reason he was respected as one of the best in the game. He was a wiley coyote of a man who kept his secrets and seemed incapable of failure. Which I suspect the YED knew this as well, and seised his oppertunity when it presented its self to get John out of the game. The YED at that point in time needed Sam and figured him the easiest (and most tempting) pawn in his arsenal for his plans. But also assumed Dean would be easier to dispatch than John who had already proventime and time again he couldn't be caught. So when the oppertunity arose to take John out of the picture, the YED snatched it up.

Just like John knew he would. I have no doubt John never intended to come back from the meeting alive, even before Sam gave him the news he knew very well what risks he was taking. Bu tthat was part of John's character, he never made a move with out knowing all potential out comes, he was after all a good soldier.

Give Sam another 20 years and he'll be exactly like Dad.

[blacklid.livejournal.com]

I got all the way to the end, nodding my head the whole way, and then I got to the last line.

DAMMIT JOHNNY. You ARE NOT ALLOWED to do that to me TWICE in ONE DAY.

*dies like all over again*

[felonytexas.livejournal.com]

J-O-N-N-Y. No H. The H must die....I alone am best...::cough::

Well, come on tell me you can't tell that Sam is a young John. Every one assumes because Dean and John have so much incommon that Dean is the mirror image of John, no, it's Sam. Why else could they get get along?

Dean and John have a lot in common but they are not father and son, they are superior officer and soldier. They are friends, with one being the subordinant (in this case Dean). They are commrades at arms, have gone to war together and come back with an unshakable bond. A bond that owuld not have been there had they not gone to war. War buddies is how I would describe John and Dean, their commonalities are born directly from their warriors lifestyle, not because they intrinsicly have anything in common. Dean is not independent like his father, he is incapable of that as demonstrated by his willingness to follow every order his father gives, right to the letter.

Now, Sam is crafty. He's intelligent and independent (clearly demonstrated by his blowing off of the family career and striking out on his own - not once but TWICE [please note both times it was Dean who pulled him back...more on this at another itme]). Sam can not be kept. John knew that. John let Sam go, he could have forced him to stay, but he didn't. He let him walk away, and he let him stay away. Because like John, Sam has to make his own way in the world. What we know of John is that he was independent, that he owned his own business, that he made his own way in life. That he hunted and drug his kids along as soldiers, not sons. To Sam who needed and wanted the life they had had before (a life John left but clearly had desired for himself as he left the soldier's life to be a family man with a regular job and regular house), this life was unacceptable. To John it was to, notice how he apologizes for it several times. In Bad Blood it's even discussed how much they have in common, their normal lives were both thrown askew by the same force. It's that same force that drives them both to be hunters.

Sam and John fight the battle for the same reasons, Dean fights because it's what he understands and how he understands the world. While he has desired something closer to normal, Dean didn't leap and grab at a chance to take it, unlike Sam. John lept and grabbed at a chance to take it, if he had never been anything but a solider he'd have never left the Marines to marry Mary and have children and a regular job.

Notice how the YED puts his bet on Sam. This isn't because Sam is the strongest (certainly that fell to metal bending Jake), or has the most useful power (see: Andy). But because Sam was the coyote of the group. He's clever, crafty and a master escape artist. He can not be caged, trapped or stop once he sets his mind to something (ie just like Dad). The YED KNEW with out a doubt Sam would be the one to come through for him, provided he was motivated properlly. Just like the YED knew he'd never catch John, so when John surrendered even though the YED knew it ment making Dean more bothersome than before, he took it. Because Dean would never be the big problem Dad was.

Sam and John are leaders. Dean isn't. Dean is a hero, in the most classical sense, but he isn't the guy that changes the world. Sam is the guy who changes the world, Dean's the right hand who fights to the bitter end, but doesn't walk away from battle (and Dean knows this , better than any one).

The part I find the most interesting about this episode is not that John told Dean to kill Sam if he could not protect him. It's that in saying that John gave Dean the one order he knew his son could not, and would not follow. In essescence...John told Dean to be more like Sam.

[charityflint.livejournal.com]

Wow, people got really deep and philosophical about this enormous moment in Winchester history. I love that about this fandom, and its fans.

My very simple take on things is that as part of his torture, the YED allowed John to be completely aware of everything he did to his boys. I got this impression from John's anguished, "Stop it!" when he comes out of the YED's control for just a moment inside that cabin, whether by his own strength or the YED's design.

At any rate, John is intimately aware of just how damaged, how close to death Dean was even before the accident. When he regains consciousness in the hospital, he reacts immediately and desperately.

To give Sam any chance at overcoming his sinister destiny, he has to have Dean at his side. John is willing to make this last desperate deal to save the one person he knows will do everything in his power to save Sam; Dean. He formulates a plan and has to get Sam's help to carry it out before it's too late, sacrificing even this last chance at reconciliation with Sam.

Even Shakespeare couldn't write tragedy this gut-wrenching. Maybe.

[improperlydone.livejournal.com]

I think John had the intention of summoning the demon to kill him. I actually don't think he made the decision to make the deal for Dean's life until after he saw Dean.

[dairwendan.livejournal.com]

I don't believe that John ever intended to summon YED just to kill him or have some 'macho showdown' as Sam says. If so, he wouldn't have gone to Meg while sending the boys to Rosie's nursery. He would have just summoned the demon to the mnotel room and offed him right there. All he needed was the list of things he'd need to sumon the demon, which he obviously already had memorized, and the colt, which he had finally gotten just then.

Maybe he knew that YED would be a little too smart for that, wouldn't respond to being summoned if he knew John was going to shoot him? Maybe John always knew there might be something even greater that he could use the summoning for? I think John wouldn't have tried so hard to keep the demon inside him nor would he have ordered, pleaded and begged Sam to shoot him if he thought there was any chance he could just summon YED and shoot him.

At any rate, I think that John made the list as soon as he woke up, because he knew Dean was already near death when they put him in the car, and he didn't know Sam's condition, so one or both of his sons could be dead or near death, and the only way to do anything about that was to make a deal.

Then I think as soon as he saw a doctor or nurse he asked about his sons and was told that Dean was touch and go. So the quickest way to make the deal was to send Sam to get the ingredients from Bobby. But had Sam also been too injured to leave the hospital, he would have pulled his ass outta that bed immediately, on sheer will power alone, to get that deal made before either boy was too far gone.

I think that Sam jumps to his conclusion because he can't believe his dad is even thinking about the Demon while Dean may be dying, he was also offended that John asked about the colt. Because the thought of Dean being in pain, dying or being gone is too traumatic for Sam to even collect his thoughts in the same way that John does. All he can think about is Dean. He can't find a connection between Dean and the demon so he finds it cold that John would be thinking about the demon, because to him thinking about the demon means NOT thinking about Dean.

John being John, he isn't about to explain his actions. But even if he were inclined to, he knows that Sam being Sam, his son would first refuse to allow John to take such a risk. Then once convinced it was the only way to save Dean, would insist on coming with John. And he would never take no for an answer, because he has this odd stubborn streak from somewhere. So this is why he tells Sam that the stuff on the list is for protection. He wanted to get that stuff as quickly as possible and he didn't have time for argument.

Anyway, that's my take.

[samazon13.livejournal.com]

Um, I think it's just a continuity error.

*giggles and runs away*

-Samazon