agt_spooky | Supernatural - more spoilers for episode 20!

Current Mood: nervous

Entry tags:

Supernatural - more spoilers for episode 20!

Got some more info on episode 20, folks!

I saw this posted by

supernatural_tv:

There is more to the episode. More sides have been posted(per TWOP). Instead it appears that without his mother being murdered and his father mistreating him and emotionally neglecting him, Dean would have been an irresponsible jerk who was a disappointment to his whole family and was never there for Sam.

Wow...I'm not sure I like this episode anymore. So with two loving parents Dean turns out to be a jerk?? Huh?? So that Mary being killed and John being a not so great father and dragging his sons into a world of hunting is what made Dean a better man? They'd really better explain, and it had better be good, how exactly Dean turns out like this. It's hard to see how Dean could see his real life as a blessing, you know? Especially with Sam's "destiny" looming over their heads, not to mention everything else he's gone through over the past 20+ years. He's already lost both parents and may have to kill his brother, and he'll be happy to get back to all of that? What a twisted take on It's a Wonderful Life, there Eric!

Hmmm...wonder if we'll get to see Mary in this episode as well. Wow, talk about a total angst-fest for Dean! If either or both John and Mary are in this episode, but John especially, I think it would fuel Dean's fire to get his father back from Hell, leading into the two-part season finale after this episode, where I firmly believe that the boys are marching down there to save him.

What do you guys think of this episode now?

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

What a twisted take on It's a Wonderful Life, there Eric!

But then again, wouldn't that fit with what happens when one tangles with a Djinn? The old "be careful what you wish for" angle, the imperfect granting of wishes and exacting a price?

You know, I know absolutely nothing about the Djinn, but from what you just said, I guess the episode would make perfect sense! So Dean wishes that things would've been different, that his mother was never killed and this is what he would get - Mary alive, but his life not exactly what he wanted. Hmmm, interesting!

I guess the premise "be careful what you wish for" is right on spot here.
It's that this would be Dean's life if Mary didn't die, but a total distorted (sp?) life to make Dean regret his wish and probably be killed or forced to kill himself with the pressure of this life.

but a total distorted (sp?) life to make Dean regret his wish

That certainly sounds like what may happen!

I'll know better when I see the episode of course, but it seems to me that they have sort of mixed the actual Djinn lore and our Western corruption of it as Genies.

Djinn have free will and can be good or bad (I won't go into the different types). Genies grant wishes. It sounds to me like they're going to have Dean get mixed up with a Djinn who seems to grant his wish (spoken or unspoken) that Mary would never have died, but the reality that results is not necessarily what would have really occurred. In other words, just because the Djinn gives Dean a life where his mother lives and he becomes "an irresponsible jerk who was a disappointment to his whole family and was never there for Sam", doesn't mean that one thing caused the other. Because we don't know if it was a good and honest Djinn or an evil trickster Djinn who was just messing with him.

Djinn can take different forms, like shape shifters. They can be hurt (possibly killed) by salt, steel, iron and copper. Djinn do die, so they can presumably be killed. And I'm thinking that is probably what Dean will have to do to reverse this.

Thanks for the Djinn info! The sides that I read last night almost make it sound like Dean may have been tricked into making this wish, so I'm really curious as to how this all goes down.

doesn't mean that one thing caused the other.

Good point! And I hope that how Dean's life turned out in this warped reality is explained. Where did Dean's life go so wrong when the rest of his family seems to be on track? Geez, this poor guy can't win! His life sucks in reality and sucks in alternate reality, too!

And I'm thinking that is probably what Dean will have to do to reverse this.

Yep, I'm thinking we'll have to hunt this sucker down, eh?

And I hope that how Dean's life turned out in this warped reality is explained. Where did Dean's life go so wrong when the rest of his family seems to be on track? Geez, this poor guy can't win! His life sucks in reality and sucks in alternate reality, too!

I know, how awful! I can see why they wrote it that way if they are going to make Dean feel guilty about putting things right because everyone else is better off and has the life they wanted. So does he or doesn't he?

But as far as the logic of it, I don't see it. The Mary and John of the pilot would never have allowed that to happen. And I feel that the only reason that Dean is 'a womanizer' now is that he knows he'll never be in one place long enough to have a real relationship. And the one time he tried to, with Cassie, he told her the truth about his family and she thought he was a whackjob and dumped him. So what's a guy to do? If you ever wanna get laid, you do one night stands with virtual strangers. BUt the way Dean was with Cassie tells me that this is NOT the way he would have been if he'd had a different life.

Nor do I think he ever would have been a black sheep. Little Dean was a Daddy's boy from the word go, you can see that in the pilot. And in Something Wicked, Dean is already responsible and obedient before the shtriga ever shows up.

Yep, I'm thinking we'll have to hunt this sucker down, eh?

IF this is the beginning of a Dean arc though, who knows? It may get dragged out. Also, this may or may not have any relevance to the episode or to the series, but it's an interesting fact that Djinn do procreate. I don't know if they can do so with humans, but maybe. You never know what they might throw in there.

I can see why they wrote it that way if they are going to make Dean feel guilty about putting things right because everyone else is better off and has the life they wanted. So does he or doesn't he?

God, that would be horrible! Doesn’t Dean ever get to be happy for crying out loud?? He’s spent his entire life making sure Sammy and Dad were ok, giving up all of HIS dreams for them. Then to maybe be faced with this choice? I’ll throttle Eric if that’s the way the episode goes. I’m already not pleased with him, with what we know so far – why does Dean always have to get the short end of the stick? Crappy real life and crappy “alternate” life. Nice.

The Mary and John of the pilot would never have allowed that to happen

And that’s my biggest argument as well. I just do not believe that Dean would turn out to be a jerk that hates his family with two loving parents and a brother. So there had better be a damn good explanation as to why he DID in this other universe.

BUt the way Dean was with Cassie tells me that this is NOT the way he would have been if he'd had a different life.

Yep, I believe that as well. As the seasons have progressed and we’ve seen cracks in Dean’s armor, we know that he’s got a big, caring heart underneath that macho façade and I believe would be loyal to one woman if given the chance.

Nor do I think he ever would have been a black sheep. Little Dean was a Daddy's boy from the word go, you can see that in the pilot.

And with Mary NOT dying, the possibilites for Dean’s life would have been endless. So he becomes a slacker jerk instead? Don’t think so, Eric!

God, that would be horrible! Doesn’t Dean ever get to be happy for crying out loud??

No. No, he doesn't.

So he becomes a slacker jerk instead? Don’t think so, Eric!

Yeah, I definitely hope it is made clear WHY Dean would turn out this way, OR it's made clear that this is the Djinn's idea of what would have happened, not necessarily what would have REALLY happened.

If it's not made clear, I'm going with the Djinn theory anyway.

I would think that the djinn would have some influence here. I don't think we'll see what Dean *really* would have been like, only what the Djinn will twist his reality into. Djinn are supposed to resent being made to give wishes, and in most stories, seem to try to find ways to make the wisher's life more miserable than it was before he started making those wishes.

(Although you'd think Dean would know that...)

I hope they make that obvious though, because I think the man we see would have turned out to be good with strong convictions and a strong sense of right and wrong, no matter what his upbringing.

Djinn are supposed to resent being made to give wishes, and in most stories, seem to try to find ways to make the wisher's life more miserable

I'm glad you guys are telling me about the Djinn, 'cause I was clueless, so this is making more sense.

(Although you'd think Dean would know that...)

Yes, good point! Though we know Dean's at such a low point in his life right now, maybe he's willing to take that chance, to reverse things to try and save Sam.

Though on the other hand, he seems kinda panicked when he calls Sam in the sides, like he was tricked into this "wish".

because I think the man we see would have turned out to be good with strong convictions and a strong sense of right and wrong, no matter what his upbringing.

I absolutely and totally believe that as well, so it's going to be interesting to see if it's explained how his life took a wrong turn.

You know what I don't like? That

andromakhe001 says that John mistreated and emotionally neglected Dean. Sure, he was not the father of the year but it could have been way worse. Though if it's written in the posted pages then I apologize profusely.

Another thing that bothers me is that she/he implies that the writers want us to think that the hunt was actually good for Dean. I don't think that it was the hunt that made Dean a good person. It was the purpose it gave him.

Imagine him growing up in a family that never laid any demands on him, didn't need him to watch out for his brother etc. and thus never gave him a purpose that would shape his life. No wonder he grew up being a jerk. I think that the character of Dean is the same in both universes. Just imagine our Dean without Sam. He would have grown up unfeeling jerk too because it was the need to take care of his bro that shaped him.

Okay, I think I'm officially ranting now... XP

But I also think it'll be the whole "Be careful what you wish for" thing. And that he'll show his family that he is not the black sheep and then he'll die there saving... Sam/Dad/Mum/whoever and that'll bring him back :P

I do think John mistreated Dean, not because he didn't love him though. Just because he was messed up. John parentified Dean to a huge degree, he put massive responsibilities on his shoulders at an incredibly young age, Dean was taking care of Sam(physically) and John(at least emotionally) from the time he was a young boy. That's extremely unhealthy for emotional development and yes can be qualified as emotional neglect.

Also it's kind of ridiculous for them to suggest that Dean wouldn't have found some other purpose in his life if his mother hadn't been murdered. Some normal, ordinary purpose like most of the rest of the people in the world and that of course he'd turn out to be a jerk. Why? Sam didn't turn out to be a jerk, Sam's still Joe College the Law Student. It's insulting to Dean's character to suggest that he needed to be mistreated(which he was however inadvertantly) and have his mother murdered in order to amount to anything.

It's also insulting to suggest that he'd have been bad to his family without those things. So everyone should be grateful for that murdered mother? He'd never have found a purpose without it because he's clearly not intelligent or motivated enough on his own and naturally he'd be a jerk to his family because that's just the sort of person he is underneath it all?

No I DON'T think our universes Dean would have been a jerk without Sam to take care of, anymore than most other people would be. Twins can be seperated at birth and raised thousands of miles apart and still often turn out to be incredibly similar to each other. This is essentially the same sort of thing, so if twins, who are two seperate if genetically identical people, do that why in the heck wouldn't Dean still turn out to be a good, responsible person who loved his family?

It wasn't the fire that made him a big brother and alot of Dean's traits are very much "oldest child" traits taken to somewhat extreme degrees because of the extreme circumstances he was brought up in. Oldest children tend to be responsible, tradition oriented, tending towards wanting to please their parents, etc.

Also it's kind of ridiculous for them to suggest that Dean wouldn't have found some other purpose in his life if his mother hadn't been murdered

I totally agree with this. I was very disheartened to read the spoilers and find out that in this other reality Dean is a jerk to his family and is basically a slacker. Like you said, Sam found a purpose and it's ridiculous that it would take such a tragedy as his mother's murder to lead Dean down a path to being a good person and to find his own purpose.

It's also insulting to suggest that he'd have been bad to his family without those things

Especially since it was obvious how much Mary and John loved Dean in the pilot, before the fire. With that kind of loving influence in your life how do you turn out to be such a jerk to them?

why in the heck wouldn't Dean still turn out to be a good, responsible person who loved his family?

And that question had better be answered, and answered good!

Though if it's written in the posted pages then I apologize profusely

No, there's nothing in the additional pages (that I got to read tonight) that mentions John at all, actually.

Imagine him growing up in a family that never laid any demands on him, didn't need him to watch out for his brother etc. and thus never gave him a purpose that would shape his life. No wonder he grew up being a jerk

You know, I think I have to disagree with you on this one. :-) I just don't believe Dean would turn out this way had his mother not been murdered. Heck, my mom was never murdered and I've got a younger sibling and I still managed to grow up a nice person who's not a jerk to my family and find a purpose in my life. *g* But hey, maybe Eric will give us a convincing reason and I'm looking forward to seeing what it is!

But I also think it'll be the whole "Be careful what you wish for" thing

Yes, I think that might come into play, definitely. It's still unclear from the script pages exactly how all this happens with the Djinn - whether Dean voices his "wish" outloud to it or it gets inside his head or something.

When we were watching last week's episode, my mom made a comment to me about Dean. She told me she thinks he's an alcholic and needs to seek help for it. She loves the show!!! She loves both guys (okay who wouldn't?) but she made me realize that Dean is trying to deal with his demons by drinking. Has there ever been an episode when Dean isn't buzzed or just starting to get his buzz on?

Yes, nearly all of them have had Dean quite sober. In fact if you'll recall he got majorly pissed at Sam for getting drunk on the job in Playthings. We've NEVER seen Dean drunk on the job. Or even particularly tipsy. Once with Gordon he had quite a few AFTER the job was over but not enough to make even act tipsy. The one time he had a hangover was last season in Provenance after a night out with two girls. :) The last episode doesn't count because Sam was clearly exagerrating because he dislikes Dean getting information in bars, he always gets on his case about, even when Dean gets good information.

Otherwise we see him have a beer, almost always at the same time Sam is having a beer. Or he'll have a drink at a bar while trying to get information, which one or two drinks does not an alcoholic make. Dean's 6ft 1 and has plenty of muscle, it would take rather a bit to get him drunk.

I want to get him drunk!!!

Noooo. I dont like that. :( I dont think Dean could ever be a jerk or a disappointment. They better explain it really well or .. something. I don't like the idea. :( I knew this epsoide would be sad but yeah not this!

It was so easy to see how much Dean was loved by John and Mary in the pilot episode, before the fire, that I have a hard time believing that he'd turn out like that, with that kind of a loving family. This had better be good, Kripke!

I agree with you. Not sure how I feel about it. I don't think Dean would have been irresponsibile. But I do trust EK!

I know! I just can't imagine Dean turning out like that. Eric had better have a good explanation!

Maybe the AU is just a mirror universe when we see things going like we never would like to.

Or maybe this is because the demons are using this trick so that Dean would regret his wish and come back to his real life and got killed.

Kripke is a genius!

Good guesses! Anything is possible! :-)

I'm just hoping they change it a little. What is Dean supposed to come out of that with? Dean you are a lazy irresponsible bastard underneath it all thank your lucky stars your mother was murdered and your entire childhood was sacrificed? His self esteem is low enough, I can't see that helping.

His self esteem is low enough, I can't see that helping

Yes, thank you! I really am curious as to what...message we, and Dean, are supposed to take away from this. Because nothing sounds very positive, from Dean's standpoint, at least.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

Supernatural - more spoilers for episode 20!

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject